The lack of consistency and standards in judging

Captain Ben

Hypermiler
Staff member
Some would consider a judge to be the worst position to have in drifting. You have to make decisions that can either garner praise or controversy. The only senses you have available to judge a run are your eyes and ears. So while I can see and hear one thing, others can see another, thus creating different opinions and conclusions. Ultimately a decision is the result of the judges opinion, it's not necessarily a fact. If it was then there would be no arguments and everyone would be in agreement.

Looking through all the comments that resulted from the controversy between the crash with Chelsea and Tyler, only one stood out to me. I forgot who stated this but when someone was responding to the questionable calls the judges have been making all weekend, they mentioned the problem being the lack of consistency amongst their decisions. Thinking it through I realized that is one of the problem areas with the judging. It seems as if the judges are making decisions in a case by case scenario which leaves them susceptible to making calls that can slap them in the face afterwards.

For instance this past weekend during qualifying I witnessed someone scoring a 0 just because they straightened out. As the day progressed this decision became more preposterous because many other drivers straightened out and didn't score a 0! How is it that Forsberg still got the win after spinning out behind Daigo?

With that last question the judges came to a conclusion based on their assumption that Daigo purposely lifted off the throttle in order to throw Forsberg off. What if he didn't and did in fact lifted in order to correct? Isn't it the chase drivers job to adjust to whatever the lead car does? Why wasn't it thrown into a OMT? It's things that have been said and done before that are coming back to bite them in the butt for their decisions. In the end it came down to an opinion that was formed based on what the judges heard and saw. And it's the difference of opinion amongst everyone plus the inconsistency that can cause controversies in the decisions that are made. The judges should never be concerned that their decision could lead to a controversy, but at least be aware of it because it will cast the organization in a negative light.

Controversies are inevitable when judging a series, but how can one reduce of risk of creating a major one? For one thing be consistent. Don't treat every run on a case-by-case scenario. If you could standardize your decisions as much as you can, stick to it, and be transparent about it then you should be good. Why? Because if you're ever questioned about it then you can always point to the standards you've made publicly available. Plus you avoid falling into the trap where the reasoning for your decision is inconsistent with the decision you made in a later event.

Formula Drift has been trying to be transparent with the judging criteria but it doesn't look like they're successfully getting the message across. I can understand the difficulty in their attempts because the majority of the audience isn't interested in knowing all the specific details on what the judges are looking for. They come to watch a good show.

If you were to ask me what decision would I have made with the Tyler vs. Chelsea crash then my answer would be a OMT. Reason being is since Tyler crashed first, he was at fault for throwing the other driver off, especially considering how chase drivers are supposed to treat the lead car as a moving clipping point. Looking at both of their mistakes in their lead runs, even though it can be argued one was greater than the other, I would come to a conclusion of a OMT. Now does that sound reasonable? Some may say no but I think many can agree it sounds better than what the judges initially based their decision on.

In retrospect I think the judges should be more careful with their decisions and what they say. With the way how some spectators follow the series and how all the events are recorded and uploaded to YouTube, one can easily bring up a valid argument with evidence to back up their claim. Whether or not the judges care is up to them. I don't expect them to nor want them to think twice about a decision just because they are afraid of what the spectators will think. But I would like for them to be mindful about their conclusions since the choices they make not only affects the public's opinion, it also affects the organization. The comments are not only saying, "F**k the judges", they are also saying, "F**k FD".

Discussing this post with some of my colleagues I realized something that Formula Drift needs that other race series have: in-car cameras. Ever watch NASCAR or Le Mans? They often switch over to the in-car camera in order to get the drivers perspective. If the judges of Formula Drift had access to that, they could have come to a different conclusion after watching Chelsea's in-car footage. I don't know if FD has the budget to run that type of setup but they should look into it. Plus the throttle, RPM, and brake readouts that you often see in NASCAR videos could've been useful in the battle between Daigo vs. Forsberg.

There is a lot more I could say but that is the main gist of it. I'll probably add more after I see some responses. I could be wrong with many things so feel free to sound off on what you disagree with. And if you read all of it then I owe you another cookie.
 
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There were tons of shitty calls early in the day of qualifying. Some decent runs down in the twenties and thirties.

Later in the evening equivalent runs were scoring 60's and 70's. Thats annoying.

Almost each driver has half a dozen go pro cameras on their car. I agree we should have at least one camera, preferably live feed of the cockpit. It would settle the braking related comments and would be immediate insight to aid the judges.

Strictly speaking, I initially came to the conclusion Daigo was a douche brake checking everyone and using that to his advantage. There are a lot of people that disagree.

A camera would solve that dispute.
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I was sitting next to a couple in Palm Beach, that was their first drift event attending. They were so pissed that Daigo got the win. They were so upset that he lost that they made comments about how it was a waste of money and how so much shouldn't ride on a few guys who are stuck in the same tower across the way seeing the same viewpoint.

I had to explain that this sport is fun, no matter who judges it. I had to defend the sport entirely and hopefully they walked to their car a mile away stoked to see another event one day. I don't want to think of how many first timers were unsatisfied and disagreed with their choice to go.

As I mentioned earlier the crowds weren't so nice, I got chewed out by some bitch that wasn't paying attention to where she was walking and the general "feel" of that event was different. Its really important to me for new people to get hooked into this awesome sport. Its just as important that the veterans and the enthusiasts don't lose faith in the sport. All due to a set of judges representing an organization which in turn represents that sport.

I love this sport. I want other people to love it too.
 
What else is there to say? Ben said it all.

Chelsea vs. Tyler was not the only battle to be judged inconsistently. Let's also remember Daigo vs. Conrad, Matt Powers vs. Vaughn Gittin Jr. (although I don't like Matt Powers too much), and Daigo vs. Forsberg (although I was going for Forsberg, I will admit, it was incorrectly called). It just makes me think, "What exactly are the judges looking for?" They need to make it clear what it is that they are looking for and STICK TO IT.
 
What else is there to say? Ben said it all.

Chelsea vs. Tyler was not the only battle to be judged inconsistently. Let's also remember Daigo vs. Conrad, Matt Powers vs. Vaughn Gittin Jr. (although I don't like Matt Powers too much), and Daigo vs. Forsberg (although I was going for Forsberg, I will admit, it was incorrectly called). It just makes me think, "What exactly are the judges looking for?" They need to make it clear what it is that they are looking for and STICK TO IT.

I dont necessarily like powers either, but I dont think he should have lost that, OMT at the worst.
 
What else is there to say? Ben said it all.

Chelsea vs. Tyler was not the only battle to be judged inconsistently. Let's also remember Daigo vs. Conrad, Matt Powers vs. Vaughn Gittin Jr. (although I don't like Matt Powers too much), and Daigo vs. Forsberg (although I was going for Forsberg, I will admit, it was incorrectly called). It just makes me think, "What exactly are the judges looking for?" They need to make it clear what it is that they are looking for and STICK TO IT.

i think they were right that forsberg beat daigo. daigo let off the gas when it was not needed and forsberg was forced to spin.
 
i think they were right that forsberg beat daigo. daigo let off the gas when it was not needed and forsberg was forced to spin.

As controversial as that battle was (seems like every battle with Daigo is controversial), the lead car is a moving clipping point for the follow car. The follow car must mimic the movements of the lead car. So if Daigo lifted off, Forsberg should have lifted off as well or used the left foot brake
 
i think they were right that forsberg beat daigo. daigo let off the gas when it was not needed and forsberg was forced to spin.

Since when is letting off the gas against the rules? If the lead car straightens out and causes the chase car to crash or straignten out then I understand that but not letting off and maintaining angle
 
It's funny when people say " I dont like this guy" . If you already don't like someone then your going to judge differently. I think every driver has there own style and technique to drifting . Have you every drifted to a corner feeling you might be coming too hot and tap the brake or let off the gas just to slow down a bit ? I know I have at skid pad and the fastet you go there is like 25mph. Everyone might as well do video tapped solo runs and do ghost runs like in the games.

In the beginning of the event I heard all judges have one part there focusing on . Angle line style I think are the 3 and then speed and extra points to angle and style .. Correct me if I'm wrong . That's all I got to see from this event and some qualifying runs .. Some calls about the straightning out where shitty calls but I guess they took the fact that it started to rain under consideration .

I can't comment on anything else because I didn't see the battles . Only the videos posted about Chelsea and Tyler


Thank you Ben for making this thread. It will help some people see what judges have to go through and might judge differently next event . And I'm waiting for my two cookies
 
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Since when is letting off the gas against the rules? If the lead car straightens out and causes the chase car to crash or straignten out then I understand that but not letting off and maintaining angle

Exactly. And trust me, I was going for Forsberg in that battle, but I saw what I saw. And that should have been Daigo's win, or maybe, just maybe a OMT.

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I dont necessarily like powers either, but I dont think he should have lost that, OMT at the worst.

Exactly. Didn't see this post earlier. lol.
 
Just saw one part.
Daigo missed a shift. You can here it in BG's video, and he also personally told Chris....well, Robbie told Chris. Haha.
 
Am I the only one who remembers last year the judges stressed that if you had less power than the lead car that you should run your own line and not compromise angle? Now it's the complete opposite. FD is turning into a pissing match about who has the most power. I think the reason the judges gave the win to JR over powers is because he put out more smoke.
 
am i the only one who remembers last year the judges stressed that if you had less power than the lead car that you should run your own line and not compromise angle? Now it's the complete opposite. Fd is turning into a pissing match about who has the most power. I think the reason the judges gave the win to jr over powers is because he put out more smoke.

+1
 
As I mentioned earlier the crowds weren't so nice, I got chewed out by some bitch that wasn't paying attention to where she was walking and the general "feel" of that event was different.

Probably the same person who complained about my vuvuzela. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 05:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 AM ----------

Well now that gopro has wifi enabled cameras, maybe in car cameras should be put to use!
That's exactly what I was thinking of. Get some powerful routers like this:

http://www.ampedwireless.com/products/ap600ex.html

---------- Post added at 06:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:58 AM ----------

WAIT. WE CAN LIKE SHIT NOW? :eek:
Yeah for some time. Feel free to use it as I've been testing it.

---------- Post added at 06:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:01 AM ----------

Am I the only one who remembers last year the judges stressed that if you had less power than the lead car that you should run your own line and not compromise angle? Now it's the complete opposite. FD is turning into a pissing match about who has the most power. I think the reason the judges gave the win to JR over powers is because he put out more smoke.

I remember that. I don't have an issue if the judges decide to change things around before the start of a new year. It's when they start to make drastic changes midway through the season or at every event is what I have a problem with.
 
I dont know what you guys are talking about Daigo VS Conrad was the right call Daigo was able to run over all the cones on the track like pacman that is what judges are looking for if you dont hit clipping points by running them over with atleast 3 tires you are not drifting it is also preferred to go straight on your follow runs. FD'S judging is dead on Chelsey VS Mcgweoirhsdfoh you can obviously see on the video when mcqwriphjdsf hits the wall chelsey has to hit the brakes you can see the smoke buff from the front tires and what happens when you lock up on the corner or banking ?????? Wait to be a judge you dont have to know anything about drifting or car physics??? the centrifigural force that your tires are fighting against will cause your car to go in the direction of your momentum as soon as you loose grip (locking up brakes would be considered loosing grip) like ebrake extension. If chelsey staid on throttle and ran in to Mcqiwoyefiohsd like a man he would have won but since instead he tried to avoid hitting mcquoierwte he lost???? thats the spirit awesome call. All the calls are done consistenly are correctly you guys just dont understand. start playing pacman and you will get it some times pacman eats the big one and gets special powers to eat the chase cars!!!
 
I'm with Ben, I don't necessarily see a problem with putting emphasis on one part of drifting or another... just be consistent.
 
All this talk of chelsea and tyler, and everybody is missing the big picture. WHY THE HELL IS TONY ANGELO IN TOP 32!!!!!! :fu:
 
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